Microsiervos: comentarios fuera

Editado a las 20:12 del 2005-12-13

Desde hoy, Microsiervos ha desactivado los comentarios. La, en mi opinión, bitácora de referencia de la blogosfera geek hispana aparentemente cierra sus puertas al resto de la comunidad.

Por mi parte, jamás hubiera cerrado el grifo de los comentarios. En primer lugar, porque dadas mis escasas aportaciones y la poca -pero fiel- audiencia que tengo, no permitir a nadie añadir lo que se le ocurra a lo poco que escribo me parecería prácticamente como darle una patada en el culo a mis lectores, a los que debo acariciar. Siempre he comprado la idea de que una bitácora es igual a sus historias más sus comentarios. Una bitácora sin comentarios es como un... huevo sin bigote, como suele decir el viejo fortune.

Pero los Microsiervos parecen opinar lo contrario, y nos sugieren formas de interactuar con ellos sin tener que recurrir a los clásicos comentarios: trackbacks, del.icio.us, Technorati... mecanismos que sospecho que al final todos terminaremos aplicando. Y que, repito, yo no me hubiera atrevido ni a sugerir. Supongo que precisamente eso, el imaginarlo y atreverse, es lo que distingue a la vanguardia de los que vamos en el pelotón.

118 comentarios

Referencias (TrackBacks)

URL de trackback de esta historia http://hronia.blogalia.com//trackbacks/35616

Comentarios

1
De: Alvy Fecha: 2005-12-13 20:37

Bueno, no es exactamente «cerrar su puertas al resto de la comunidad», es plantear otras alterantivas porque sinceramente con el formulario tradicional ya no damos a basto a tener el blog como nos gustaría realmente (y nos quita un tiempo que no tenemos.) Veremos qué tal funcionan esas alternativas, yo creo que pueden ir bien, hay muchos blogs en el mundo que no tienen comentarios y siguen siendo igual de interesantes.



2
De: Epaminondas Pantulis Fecha: 2005-12-13 20:40

Maldición, ¡sí que es verdad que leeis a los que os enlazan! ¡y además deprisa!



3
De: Epaminondas Pantulis Fecha: 2005-12-13 20:40

#1: Precisamente por eso he puesto «aparentemente»



4
De: Alvy Fecha: 2005-12-13 20:44

Y por cierto nuestros agradecimientos porque tú has sido uno de los comentaristas más habituales y enrollados en todos los sentidos en todo este tiempo.



5
De: JJ Fecha: 2005-12-13 20:47

¿Y a los que nos funciona el trackback, como a los pobres mortales de blogalia (por la presente)?



6
De: JJ Fecha: 2005-12-13 20:52

Ahora seguro que esta entrada se convertirá en el sitio para comentar el evento, supongo. Mi opinión: cada uno gestiona su blog como le apetece. Pero, sinceramente, me gusta más poner un comentario en alguna historia que me interesa, o sobre la que quiero aportar algo, que tener que recurrir a trackbacks. Si quiero enviar dos comentarios, o replicar, ¿qué hago? ¿Envío dos trackbacks?
En fin, que cualquier decisión que hayáis tomado, bien tomada está.



7
De: Epaminondas Pantulis Fecha: 2005-12-13 21:01

Si quiero enviar dos comentarios, o replicar, ¿qué hago? ¿Envío dos trackbacks?

Pero a fin de cuentas, si tu comentario es una entrada en tu bitácora que hace un trackback, la conversación pasa a tu bitácora donde se puede responder y argumentar a gusto. De hecho si la cosa da para más, supongo que cabría la posibilidad de que el microsiervo de turno recontrarreplicase escribiendo otra entrada en MS, lo que llevaría a una dinámica parecida a la de los periodistas que se responden a base de escribir columnas.



8
De: Vendell Fecha: 2005-12-13 21:28

Merde. LLevaba dos días pensando en comentar la historia del paracaidismo para sacar un poco más de información... y ahora...



9
De: JJ Fecha: 2005-12-13 21:40

Bueno, supongo que si... sin embargo, te obliga a poner una historia si quieres comentar una historia ajena. En la mayor parte de los casos, es demasiada molestia, supongo.



10
De: enhiro Fecha: 2005-12-13 21:50

En mi definición particular e intransferible de blog no entra lo que no tiene comentarios. Así que Microsiervos, en mi opinión, ha pasado a ser una interesante página de información geek, pero no un blog.

Lo de los trackbacks no lo acaba de ver, no creo en absoluto que sea comparable a los comentarios, jj ha explicado ya porqué.

Eso no quiere decir que critique la decisión de Microsiervos, entiendo sus motivos y es una pena que los trolls hayan puesto su banderita en una plaza más.



11
De: Dr. Pepix Fecha: 2005-12-13 22:11

Microsiervos cierra sus comentarios. ¿Qué será lo próximo? ¿Linus Torvalds pidiendo en una lista de GNOME que la gente se pase a KDE?



12
De: JJ Fecha: 2005-12-13 23:04

... después de llamar "interface nazis" a los creadores del mismo, activando, por tanto, la ley de Godwin?



13
De: Anónima Fecha: 2005-12-13 23:18

Bueno, no solo es que comentar a base de historias y track backs es una molestia. Es que sería totalmente ilegible.

No quiero ni imaginarme como habría sido seguir la conversación en el post de BioMaxi sobre el manifiesto de la ARP si cada uno de los 300 y pico comentarios hubiera estado en el blog del comentarista en forma de post.

Eso sin contar con como quedaría luego el blog de cada uno para el lector que lo abriera sin más: lleno de posts inconexos y sin sentido por estar fuera de contexto.

Ya tuvimos una discusión similar con David de Ugarte una vez repartida entre su blog, la Atalaya, el blog de Fernando Polo, el mío... (Pero me da pereza poner todos los enlaces). La verdad es que creo que así lo único que se consigue es que la blogosfera se convierta en una serie de monólogos en vez de una serie de conversaciones. En tanto que comentarista dispersa no me gusta nada la idea, creo que el invento de los blogs pierde toda la gracia sin comentarios.

Vamos que estoy con enhiro: un blog sin comentarios es otra cosa. Lo mismo que una página web sin más no es un blog. Habría que tener dos nombres distintos.

También hay muchas páginas web interesantes, pero que no se llaman blogs.

Y conste que la decisión de Microsiervos me parece muy respetable. Cada uno hace lo que quiere/puede con su trocito de internet. Faltaría más.

Pero creo que no conviene confundir la necesidad suprimir la posibilidad de comentar en un blog en un momento dado por los motivos que sea, con que los posts y los track backs son el futuro y la solución óptima para la conversación en internet. Que no lo son.

Si lo fuera, lo coherente hubiera sido que Alvy hubiera escrito dos posts y puesto dos track backs en vez de poner los comentarios 1 y 4. Pero se ve que a Alvy le gusta comentar en blog ajeno :)

Como probablemente les hubiera gustado mantener los comentarios en Microsiervos si no fuera porque les generaban problemas. Pero vamos esto no deja de ser una opinión.

off topic:

Tiene gracia: yo caí en esto de los blogs a través de Microsiervos, pero debe ser el único blog que leo con frecuencia donde no he comentado nunca...



14
De: Epaminondas Pantulis Fecha: 2005-12-13 23:19

Es que no sé donde vamos a ir a parar.



15
De: Epaminondas Pantulis Fecha: 2005-12-13 23:21

(El anterior mensaje era una respuesta a #11 y #12) .

Anónima: algo parecido pensé la primera vez que vi del.icio.us, que aquello no era más que un montón de bookmarks organizados en un batiburrillo extraño. Y pensé que del.icio.us no iba a ir a ninguna parte.

Lo cual demuestra una cosa: que como adivino no me gano la vida, seguro.



16
De: Fleischman Fecha: 2005-12-14 00:02

En mi humilde opinión parece un problema de escalabilidad. Si un blog tiene el suficiente éxito como para mantener una gran masa de "participantes", y el el equipo del blog no crece en la medida suficiente, el blog no puede mantenerse en términos de calidad de los contenidos, entendiendo a los comentarios como parte de los mismos. La verdad es que plantea una cuestión interesante, imaginemos una conversación en una cafetería/bar, si hay mucha gente llega un momento que no se produce un diálogo efectivo a nivel de grupo, sino que se fragmenta en varias conversaciones (lo cual no es nada malo por otro lado). ¿Tendría sentido dimensionar un weblog para que sólo puedieran participar de él un número máximo de personas? ¿o un método mixto basado en porcentajes, como por ejemplo un 80% por cien de personas registradas y un 20% de visitantes no suscritos? (y a lo mejor implementar un mecanismo de acceso/baja al status de "registrado") Técnicamente no sería inmediato plasmar dicho modelo, pero sería interesante ver cómo funcionaría.



17
De: Wicho Fecha: 2005-12-14 08:28

No se si tanto de escalabilidad como de sensación de estar caminando por un campo de minas y llegar a temerte que si estás unas horas sin mirar los comentarios te puedes llegar a encontrar cualquier cosa por culpa de diversos tipos de «talibanes».

Cuando decidimos meternos a escribir Microsiervos nuestro objetivo principal era pasarlo bien, y ese sigue siendo, así que en el momento en el que los comentarios se convirtieron en una parte del blog que nos llevaba a pasar horas discutiendo por correo o en persona qué hacer con ellos había algo que fallaba, al menos en nuestro esquema de lo que querríamos que sea Microsiervos.

Y en cualquier caso, como ya decimos en la anotación correspondiente, esta no es una decisión necesariamente irreversible.



18
De: Alvy Fecha: 2005-12-14 10:05

Vendell (#8) para eso tienes una fórmula fácil: en las propias fotos.
JJ (#5) sobre los trackbacks, hay algún problema ahora y lo estamos mirando, pero al final vamos a poner seguramente un enlace también a Technorati, algo tipo blogs que hablan sobre «Microsiervos sin comentarios» y simplemente no tienes que hacer nada (excepto tener un feed). Sí, es más cómodo un formulario que mandar un correo o pingear etc pero para nosotros es incómodo el volumen que había de comentarios y ruido, en fin.

#11 ROFL!!



19
De: Anónima Fecha: 2005-12-14 10:36

Fleischman,

Durante un breve periodo de tiempo, en sus inicios en blogger, Red Progresista tuvo un sistema dual de comentarios: en los comentarios de blogger solo podían comentar los miembros de Red Progresista. En los comentarios Haloscan podía comentar cualquiera. Así se evitaba el que fuera imposible seguir un hilo de comentarios por culpa de los trolls.

Un sistema así permitiría mantener una parroquia donde comenta gente registrada bajo invitación, un poco como la gente que tenemos blog en blogalia, por ejemplo. Y permitiría también tener un área de comentarios libre, que los autores del blog no se comprometen a mantener y donde si surge alguién o algo interesante se puede comentar.

Y yo si creo que hay un problema de escala además de un problema de ruido. Pero no se puede saber porque es cierto que al aumentar la escala aumenta más que proporcionalmente el ruido. Si se eliminara el ruido a lo mejor la escala no importaba ya tanto.



20
De: Joan Fecha: 2005-12-14 12:02

Yo también creo que una web sin comentarios no es un Blog aunque se le parezca.
Incluso el (escaso) movimiento de mi Blog lo mido por el número de comentarios no por la cantidad de paginas vistas o de usuarios.

Eso si, respeto e incluso entiendo las razones para cerrar lo comentarios de Microsiervos, aunque buscaría otra solución como obligar a los usuarios a registrarse y/o algún sistema de moderación estilo Barrapunto.



21
De: CP Fecha: 2005-12-14 17:00

Directamente es una pena que microsiervos haya cerrado los comentarios. Para los que tenemos blog en blogger y no podemos usar los trackbacks (por que haloscan no me gusto nada de nada y lo desconecte a los cinco minutos) nos ha dejado desconectados.
Por otro lado, ahora digamos que actuaran como creadores de comentarios, ya que sus trackbacks haran que vayamos descubriendo otros blogs (como acabo de hacer ahora yo con este) y que un comentario en microsiervos cree una cascada en otros blogs, y sus lectores nos dividiremos y crearemos hilos donde seguir la conversación, con el efecto curioso de que tendremos a los propios creadores del comentario en microsiervos charlando como invitados a su propio post, pero en otro blog.
Puede ser interesante, pero es una pena que se haya cerrado.



22
De: Algernon Fecha: 2005-12-14 17:04

No sólo es una pena, sino que he probado también a hacer trackbacks manuales y no rulan.



23
De: CP Fecha: 2005-12-14 17:21

Yo aun estoy intentado descubrir como hacer los trackbacks en technorati, y me temo que acabare descubriendo que desde blogger no puedo hacerlos, o alguna otra muestra de mi inutilidad, XD.



24
De: godo Fecha: 2005-12-14 21:12

Hola.

Hoy ha sido un mal día para mi... no tengo la cabeza, ni el tiempo, con la suficiente lucidez, y calma, para elaborar un comentario interesante. Sólo quería decir que respaldo lo dicho por enhiro y me parece muy interesante la aportación de Fleischman.

Ha de haber otras soluciones (y los trackbacks no lo son. Los trackbacks amplian "y segmentan" el hilo de una noticia, como dice CP).

Siguiendo necesintándoos...

Un abrazo.



25
De: rvr Fecha: 2005-12-14 22:31

La solución es menear las entradas microsiervas y comentarlas por allí ;)



26
De: Epaminondas Pantulis Fecha: 2005-12-14 22:43

O postearaquí... desde luego el que no corre vuela.



27
De: Fleischman Fecha: 2005-12-15 00:58

Hola de nuevo.

Anónima, el sistema dual que comentas parece un buen punto de partida, aunque no resuelve del todo un tema que podría ser interesante que es el de la promoción. ¿Qué llevó al abandono de dicho sistema?

Por otro lado, se me ocurre que si bien el registro es una técnica muy válida también podría llegar a tener su límite en cuanto al número máximo de usuarios registrados. Lo que nos llevaría a pensar en qué momento un usuario registrado deja de tener "valor" y debería cambiar de status.

Me ha dado que pensar cómo en el post de explicación de Microsiervos se habla de "ruido", incluso se dicen cosas como "Al final la relación entre lo interesante de una minoría de comentarios frente a lo no-tan-interesante de la mayoría (incluso dejando aparte el spam y los trolls) sencillamente no nos compensa".
Y digo yo, ¿qué debe cumplir un comentario, o qué atributos debe tener un comentario para ser realmente interesante?
Sinceramente no lo sé, pienso que lo del interés es algo subjetivo y difícil de cuantificar.

Por ejemplo, a posteriori de mi primer comentario aquí, ha habido algunas referencias/contestaciones a mi comentario, como la de Wicho y Anónima, e incluso godo muy amablemente consideraba mi aportación como "muy interesante". Ok, puede que sea así. Sin embargo en mi el último comentario que realicé en Microsiervos, entiendo podría considerarse que no sólo no era interesante, sino que podría caer dentro de lo que en el post de explicación de Microsiervos se define como "Gente que comenta únicamente para dejar su URL". Sería una interpretación posible. En dicho comentario venía la URL del blog que acabo de comenzar y como diría Pedro Jorge sobre "cosas que posiblemente sólo me interesan a mí". Partiendo que añadir la URL de mi blog no creo que tuviera una intención consciente (fue como poner mi nick, parte de la firma o identificación y punto), realmente el transfondo de ese comentario fue algo así como dar una palmadita en la espalda, manifestar mi complicidad sobre el tema o incluso mostrar que ese post me había gustado especialmente (sino no me habría molestado en hacer ningún comentario). Esto no se consigue expresar únicamente marcando un hit en las estadísticas del blog, pero es cierto que no aportaba datos nuevos, aunque el valor añadido para mí era lo que acabo de comentar.

¿Qué comentario/s podría considerarse que tiene/n más interés? En un sistema con promoción de usuarios al status de "puede comentar o no" o "está registrado o no", ¿alguno de ellos merecería que perdiera el privilegio de comentar si todos mis comentarios fueran en la misma línea?

A mí al menos no siempre me resulta fácil identificar lo que no tiene "valor" o carece de "interés".

ciao



28
De: amio cajander Fecha: 2005-12-15 10:30


sin animo de molestar en este interesante debate: Solo un detalle:

Microsiervos: comentarios fuera
Editado a las 20:12 del 2005-12-13
27 comentarios

Las mejores aplicaciones Web 2.0
Editado a las 08:09 del 2005-12-12
0 comentarios



29
De: Anónima Fecha: 2005-12-15 12:31

Fleischman,

A mi me hubiera gustado que se mantuvieran los comentarios para miembros y así lo argumenté. Así que el motivo para quitarlos no me convence nada: se suprimieron porque los neoliberales que nos visitaban sentían que eran una forma de censura o de elitismo o de algo así.

Además ahora ya no es un blog colectivo con comentarios en cada post si no un planeta y los comentarios se hacen en los blogs de cada miembro del planeta. O eso me ha parecido ver,que últimamente estoy totalmente descolgada del proyecto.

Y si, lo interesante es como se le da o se le quita a alguien la posibilidad de comentar en la zona restringida.

Pero aún compartiendo tus dudas sobre lo que se considera interesante o un comentario con valor, creo que no vienen al caso.

Desde mi punto de vista debería ser una decisión personal del o de los editores del blog basándose en lo que ellos quieran. No creo que tenga que ser algo objetivable, ni basado en el interés o el valor de los comentarios del comentarista. Por ejemplo en mi blog, yo le daría permiso par comentar en la zona restringida a amigos míos que no comentan nunca pero que me haría mucha ilusión que comentaran, aunque fuera para decir hola. En el caso de los microsiervos a lo mejor el criterio sería dejar comentar a aquellos comentaristas que hicieran que se lo pasaran bien, como decía Wicho por ahí arriba.

En cualquier caso, todos los demás podrían comentar en la zona abierta. Así que no habría censura, solo una zona con más ruido que otra. Y si allí surgiera algo interesante el/los editor/es lo podrían llevar sobre la marcha a la zona restringida. Y recíprocamente. Lo delicado sería no ofender a nadie. Peo es un poco lo que pasa en tantas situaciones en la vida real ¿a quién invitas a una fiesta/boda? ¿a quién le haces regalos en Navidad?

Amio Cajander:

¿y qué quieres comentar sobre un enlace a una lista? vas la lees y si alguna te interesa la pones en favoritos. Todo lo más hubiera sido educado darle las gracias a Epaminondas ¿no?

EP:¡gracias, by the way! :)



30
De: Amio Cajander Fecha: 2005-12-16 15:47


Perdón ... Anonima ... Mi no entender ...

Independientemente de ello ... seré el segundo en dar las gracias...



31
De: Anónima Fecha: 2005-12-16 17:08

Amio Cajander,

Siento si me he explicado mal. Pero era solo un comentario al pasar. Tú decías que ese post tenía 0 comentarios y este 27. Yo comentaba que en ese post no había gran comentario posible porque su contenido no se presta a ello. No pretendía nada más que decir eso, y darle las gracias a EP por el link, que estuve cotilleando.

Pero es verdad que al releer lo que escribí me suena un poco demasiado interrogativo, aunque no era mi intención. Perdona tú, que a veces el escribir sin verse el "brillo de los ojos" lleva a mal entendidos. ¡saludos anónimos! :)



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